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woodboat
Canada
131 Posts |
 Posted - 09/25/2005 : 1:43:50 PM
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This is regarding my 1973 Voyager 3120 (wood) however may well apply to other folk re-working their Carver...
My boat has many issues and as we get onward to the cold weather in the North, the winter allows for planning and in the Spring, action.
- The plywood lapstrake bottom is weak in numerous areas, mainly due rot of the plywood at the seams. Rotting appears to be from the inside - out. I explored the idea of epoxy laminating new ply between the ribs from the inside, however now feel it best to sheet the outside of the hull below the waterline. I am not anticipating anyone on this forum having done this, but wonder if there might be some of you able to offer opinions. As others, I will attempt to do this 'on the cheap' and am intending to use 1/4" subfloor, epoxied to existing bottom, but not epoxied on the exposed (outside)new bottom for fear of trapping moisture that might get in if the bottom is damaged while boating. However a penetrating epoxy coating on the new bottom might be valid? My understanding is that subfloor ply is well made and uses waterproof glue - and we know it is relatively much lower in cost than marine ply. I also feel 1/4" is enough, and I will fill interior damaged areas with epoxy. Ribs for the most part are OK
Formula for square footage below waterline = LOA x Beam x .85
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carvermitch
Canada
407 Posts |
 Posted - 09/25/2005 : 4:34:34 PM
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Hi
Go to the "Natalie J" home page by clicking on Home above and then look at the "Carver Help" page on my web site. You will see a link there on repairs to rotting wood, this may help you.
If you want to do the job on the cheap this will be good but to repair it for the long term I wood suggest replacing all rotten wood.
Frank may have some sound advice here as he has restored a wooden hulled Mariner and knows his stuff where they are concerned.
Regards
Paul |
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Rob
Canada
79 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 6:24:16 PM
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| Woodboat, do not use sub floor!!!!! I used it to build a hover and it came delaminated.. not even in the water yet. bite the bullet and use marine plywood or atleast exterior grade plywood. |
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carvermitch
Canada
407 Posts |
Posted - 09/25/2005 : 7:31:46 PM
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I agree Rob, replacing the wood is the best solution and it is false economy to use anything other than marine ply.
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woodboat
Canada
131 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 2:04:54 PM
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Hi folks... had a long story here on various things and wiped it out somehow... grr lol... anyway, re sub floor, Rob, I have been told this is WBP (water / boil proof) plywood with waterproof glue lines, so surprised to hear of your delam. Exterior grade ply is also supposed to be WBP, however having some difficulty locating that here. Seems the ext. grade used here is water resistant, not proof... I have difficulty justifying 800 bucks for marine ply, then again, would not want to go through the work and have it disintigrate lol...
Side note... would the hull have to be sanded bare to laminate this on? Certainly not looking forward to that if it not absolutely necessary. |
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woodboat
Canada
131 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 5:28:08 PM
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mmm ... side note ... have followed Dave Carnell's work for some 20 years now ... thought this was of interest re plywood glues...
http://www.simplicityboats.com/boil.html |
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woodboat
Canada
131 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 5:36:43 PM
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Rob, this quote from the above site you will find of interest perhaps...
"The durability of the interior glues is surprising in some ways. I once tested lauan underlayment by soaking in water until it sank, drying at 150°F. in an oven, resoaking, and redrying. It didn't delaminate. I also tried freezing it while wet and it held together. When I bent it for boat planking on a hull being built outdoors, it came apart as soon as it got rained on. Once it is stressed, the whole game changes. " |
Edited by - woodboat on 09/26/2005 5:38:21 PM |
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n/a
148 Posts |
Posted - 09/26/2005 : 7:36:05 PM
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woodboat I did have a 1972 carver that had some bad bottom boards I bit the bullet and removed all those little brass bolts and nuts cleaned them all on a brass wire wheel and replaced the wood with 3/8 inch sign board it was cheaper than marine plywood but not by much but it did seem to bend easier.keep in mind that was 20 years ago.I only owned the boat for 4 more years after that so I can not say how long it actually lasted.I finally got rid of the boat because i could not keep ahead of the rot.
With out trying to break your heart or discourage you I personally would not rehab another wood bottom boat.Financially it was not a good idea. Sorry to rain on you parade, but i would consider parting it out and getting into a mid to late 75 or newer 28 footer they were built much better than the old woody.Good luck and keep us posted on what you decide to do.
frank |
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woodboat
Canada
131 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 11:34:44 AM
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Hi Frank, discourage me? I have already been there/done that.  I was there when the boat arrived, as I purchased sight-unseen (can hear the horror words already) and had hauled about 1400km to my locale. She was/is much worse than described/detailed by the vendor.
While she should have been scrapped/salvage, I made the decision to rebuild (granted this was probably the wrong decision) and to-date have some 300 hours in her. This is probably on 1/3 or less of what she will demand to make her - well - safe and sorta nice lol. Good thing I am semi-retired and have some time. I also have some knowledge this being my 4th significant renovation. The Carver is not the largest vessel I have attacked, but may end up being the most hours. Anyway, she was/is a disaster, however I am now committed to bringing her back to some form of glory over a 2yr period. Hey, she floats! (barely) lol.
Moving on... I will not be replacing the wood on the bottom. Either epoxy (or other glue???) some sort of ply to the bottom (glass???) or from the inside???.
What about this product? does not add structual strength, but anybody used this? http://www.sanitred.com/BoatRepair.htm
Over the next few hours will attempt to drag her onto my old 40ft trailer and using a huge highway tow truck at 150 bucks an hour haul her out of the water. This will take some pharting around as the hull design is substantially diff. from my last boat. Unfortunately no services at our marina (no lift, no hydraulic etc). Wish me luck (everyday ha ha). - Steve |
Edited by - woodboat on 01/07/2006 10:55:37 AM |
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yottyboy
USA
166 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 12:54:44 PM
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This repair can't be done on the cheap. No matter how you slice it; whether it's your labor or the materials, it's gonna cost. Lemme understand this. You're going to put plywood over a lapstrake bottom? How is that supposed to work? Perhaps if you were to sister new strakes over the existing ones....nah...that would be rebuilding the whole bottom. Even if you could, I'd worry that something would peel off at 30 mph.
Your first order of business is to get the hull up on the hard and blocked square and level. Be sure to give yourself enough room underneath to be able to get under her. Then you wait. You have to allow for the wood to dry out completely, which may take a few months. If you can get her under a cover, even better.
The best way to restore the wood is with a penetrating epoxy (you can make your own using 4:1 resin thinned 10-15 % with Xylene). If you do a cost-benefit analysis you'll probably agree that this is the least problematic. I hope that the rot is limited to a few areas and not throughout the bottom, as it would be a nightmare to have to do the whole boat (been there, done that). You must dig out all the bad wood. Penetrating epoxies don't go very deep. The dry wood will soak in quite a bit of the thin epoxy resin. This will give a good base surface to build back up. Use epoxy thickened with wood flour to replace the bad sections. After this treatment you might want to sheath the bottom with glass/resin. On the inside, use the penetrating epoxy to restore the ribs and stringers. If possible remove as much bad wood as you can.
Jamestown Distributors and Defender carry wood flour and resins.
Rotsa Ruck!
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woodboat
Canada
131 Posts |
Posted - 09/27/2005 : 11:01:42 PM
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yottyboy - you are of course right that it can't be done cheap. Either labour or materials or both.
The plywood seems 'tired' on the bottom. Banged up, gouged and mmm ... weak. This, together with the widely spaced frames on Carvers means supporting the boat without having the hull bulge or more to the point bend inward at load points is quite difficult. This is the first woodie I have without a solid keel hanging below the boat... Anywho, 4 hours and big bucks later she is on my modified trailer and in my yard. She will need many more hours just to get her to sit right on the trailer (as you say " square and level"), but at a bill and a half per hour it was time to get 'unhooked' from the big tow truck. So, I am still trying to figure out how to strenghen the hull below the waterline - everywhere. Just would feel more relieved if I could do that... being worried about the pounding and flexing on what seems to me a weak hull - in not uncommon 2 - 4 ft (and bigger)seas here. Tell me I don't have to belt sand all the paint off the bottom... |
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woodboat
Canada
131 Posts |
Posted - 10/02/2005 : 8:38:43 PM
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Hi Y'all, managed to get a photo online, and I apologize for the image size - meaning you have to scroll sideways - will fix that later in the week when time should be more available. The photo does not show how bbaaaaaadd she really is, nor of course the rot.
Anyway, has anyone seen one like her? They surely seem to be a rare item. I did find two in super shape on the web however. Have been busy working on getting her to sit straight and square on my big trailer, and mating trailer support to boat which entails lifting the whole boat off the trailer (NOT the one in the photo lol). It is a LOT of work, however almost complete. Next will be a framework of sorts on top of the boat and then some tarping. Perhaps in the winter months I will install a web page so you can follow my folly.  - Steve
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Edited by - woodboat on 01/07/2006 10:57:39 AM |
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n/a
148 Posts |
Posted - 10/03/2005 : 7:21:02 PM
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| are you sure it is a carver? |
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carvermitch
Canada
407 Posts |
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woodboat
Canada
131 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2005 : 12:12:45 PM
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| ... yes indeed Paul, I have a hard copy of that brochure and she is indeed a 1973 Carver Voyager 3120, essentially the largest boat Carver had made to that point and the last of the all wood models (thank goodness lol)... doing a final scrape and degrease and flush in the bilge today... noted white mold growing in there . |
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carvermitch
Canada
407 Posts |
Posted - 10/04/2005 : 3:36:32 PM
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from what you say this is going to be a majorrrrrrrrr job. Are you sure it is worth it. If the hull was glass I would say yes but believe me wooden hulls are a lot of work even when they are in good shape.
I often wondered about my boat but the hull is glass and so I think its worth the effort. Had it been wood, I doubt if I would have taken it on.
Regards
Paul |
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