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Respite2
6 Posts |
 Posted - 05/21/2009 : 08:44:15 AM
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In just under three hours I informed the surveyor that he could stop conducting the survey. The final straw was the deterioration of the stringers in the salon. From the aft door to about two-thirds into the salon the fiberglass had separated from the wood and much of the wood was porous and disintegrating. Other problems arose as well. The wood under the fiberglass in the dip aft of the salon door had likewise deteriorated.
Other issues included: The rubbers on the cutlass bearings were going require replacing after this season. That, coupled with the five of eight engine mounts seriously corroded and would require replacement if the engines needed to be realigned was also a killer. All of the cleats were loose and the screws would not tighten. The pulpit was weak and possibly moisture laden. Steering was very stiff.
I was very pleased with the surveyor. He communicated with me throughout the process.
Tuition Costs: $255.00. Knowledge gained: Priceless. I learned quite a lot in that three hours.
Here are some questions: Are these problems common on a boat this age? Also, does this reflect some of the issues that develop with a freshwater boat? Any boat I purchase will be kept in salt water.
Bill Barker
Seekonk, Ma.
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Edited by - Respite2 on 05/22/2009 4:27:23 PM |
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monterey74
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 05/21/2009 : 1:32:50 PM
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The problem of wood components becoming inundated with moisture and rotting is a problem that can happen to a boat of any age. Even boats built with the best construction techniques can suffer from this if not carefully monitored and maintained.
Many people do not realize the amount of wood that is present in most fiberglass boats. End grain balsa is often used to core hulls with plywood or balsa common in deck coring. Stringers are also usually wood. If steps are not taken to keep this wood dry it will rot and require replacement. Deck hardware must be properly bedded and bilges kept free of debris that can trap water and jeopardize the stringers.
Once you learn a few tricks you can weed out boats with the most severe problems before calling in a surveyor. As you recently found, deck hardware that is loose and cannot be tightened is an indicator that there may be rot. Tapping on stringers or decks with a small hammer can reveal hollow sounding areas where the fiberglass has de-laminated from the underlying wood, usually a sign of water damage.
I have never kept a boat in saltwater, but from my understanding the organisms that cause wood to rot in salt and fresh water are different. I have heard that in the past salt was poured into boats as a preservative. __However__ I also know that wooden shipwrecks submerged in fresh water away from oxygen do not decompose nearly as fast as those submerged in salt water. Likely it is the case that salt in higher concentrations than that found in sea water will kill rot organisms, but plain sea water will support them. Other environmental factors that can impact wood deterioration are heat and freezing temperatures. This is certainly an interesting discussion and hopefully someone more knowledgeable will comment. In any case the electrolytic properties of salt water will damage metals much more quickly than fresh water.
Brett
1974 2885 Monterey
1978 2896 Mariner (Parts Boat) |
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Jimbo Song
236 Posts |
 Posted - 05/22/2009 : 10:36:27 AM
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From the sounds of it this boat suffers from gross neglect and has been allowed to stand with water, salt or fresh, in the bilge for long periods of time. With the extent of the engine wount seterioration I would guess salt. Either that or this boat has been submerged, in a storm or whatever, and was not promptly dried out and issues dealt with. But with the extend of the stringer rot, engine mount deterioration and cutless bearing deterioration you describe it just sounds like this old girl was simply and grossly neglected. You are wise to walk away.
I own a 1987 Voyager and know of lots of Carvers on the water as old, and even much older than mine that are in excellent condition. Mine is as sound as the day it came out of the factory. But, even at that, I am in the bilge with a phenolic hammer 2-3 times a year sounding around just to make sure something doesn't need attention.
My boat lives in salt water and, I don't care how good a boat is, it will from time to time get some salt water in the bilge. Wheather from drip seals or splash and spray, salt will find its way into the boat. So, once I year I flush the bilge with fresh water, use a good bilge cleaner and dry it completely. Any signs of corrosion are dealt with at that time. I also completely inspect all wiring and systems for signs of distress as well. As far as I'm concerned this is all just part of a responsible maintenance program.
Do not give up on either Carvers in general or older 28's in particular. There are lots of really well maintained boats out there and all you have to do is keep looking and find one at a price that is acceptable.
The most important lesson learned from your experience is; No matter how good a boat looks, no matter how sound it seems, get a professional survey done before even considering to buy it. It's $255 well spent!
Good luck in your search!
quote:
Originally posted by Respite2
In just under three hours I informed the surveyor that he could stop conducting the survey. The final straw was the deterioration of the stringers in the salon. From the aft door to about two-thirds into the salon the fiberglass had separated from the wood and much of the wood was porous and disintegrating. Other problems arose as well. The wood under the fiberglass in the dip aft of the salon door had likewise deteriorated.
Other issues included: The rubbers on the cutlass bearings were going require replacing after this season. That, coupled with the five of eight engine mounts seriously corroded and would require replacement if the engines needed to be realigned was also a killer. All of the cleats were loose and the screws would not tighten. The pulpit was weak and possibly moisture laden. Steering was very stiff.
I was very pleased with the surveyor. He communicated with me throughout the process.
Tuition Costs: $255.00. Knowledge gained: Priceless. I learned quit a lot in that three hours.
Here are some questions: Are these problems common on a boat this age? Also, does this reflect some of the issues that develop with a freshwater boat? Any boat I purchase will be kept in salt water.
Bill Barker
Seekonk, Ma.
1987 Carver Voyager 28
Jimbo Song |
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Jimbo Song
236 Posts |
Posted - 05/22/2009 : 10:43:47 AM
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Your post is very well written and absolutely correct. Salt water organisms are much heartier than those in fresh water which is why boats that live in the salt require a bit more attention. But, that being said, if a boat is well maintained, there is no reason to preffer a boat from fresh water as opposed to one that lives in salt water. Neglect will kill a boat in either environment.
Every geographical location and environment requires a specific maintenance schedule to deal with the factors of that particular location. All you need to do is go to your local marina and talk to the "Old Salts" that have been around for a while. I often talk to a lot of boaters and find them, for the most part, more than willing to share experience and knowledge. I find the boating community at large to be a marvelous group with a wealth of knowledge, particularly when it involves boats of the same manufacture as their own.
quote:
Originally posted by monterey74
The problem of wood components becoming inundated with moisture and rotting is a problem that can happen to a boat of any age. Even boats built with the best construction techniques can suffer from this if not carefully monitored and maintained.
Many people do not realize the amount of wood that is present in most fiberglass boats. End grain balsa is often used to core hulls with plywood or balsa common in deck coring. Stringers are also usually wood. If steps are not taken to keep this wood dry it will rot and require replacement. Deck hardware must be properly bedded and bilges kept free of debris that can trap water and jeopardize the stringers.
Once you learn a few tricks you can weed out boats with the most severe problems before calling in a surveyor. As you recently found, deck hardware that is loose and cannot be tightened is an indicator that there may be rot. Tapping on stringers or decks with a small hammer can reveal hollow sounding areas where the fiberglass has de-laminated from the underlying wood, usually a sign of water damage.
I have never kept a boat in saltwater, but from my understanding the organisms that cause wood to rot in salt and fresh water are different. I have heard that in the past salt was poured into boats as a preservative. __However__ I also know that wooden shipwrecks submerged in fresh water away from oxygen do not decompose nearly as fast as those submerged in salt water. Likely it is the case that salt in higher concentrations than that found in sea water will kill rot organisms, but plain sea water will support them. Other environmental factors that can impact wood deterioration are heat and freezing temperatures. This is certainly an interesting discussion and hopefully someone more knowledgeable will comment. In any case the electrolytic properties of salt water will damage metals much more quickly than fresh water.
Brett
1974 2885 Monterey
1978 2896 Mariner (Parts Boat)
1987 Carver Voyager 28
Jimbo Song |
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Not buying the 28' Mariner
