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DKinnicutt
USA
12 Posts |
 Posted - 06/14/2009 : 7:58:57 PM
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Dear Friends - I am looking at a 1979 Mariner 28'. This boat has a single Crusader engine. Should I run away? Can I expect this to handle properly? What are pros and cons? The instruments tell me that it has only 145 hours. That can't be right. This boat will be used on the Hudson River and ERie Canal - watching fireworks and listening to concerts - no open travel.
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Jimbo Song
226 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2009 : 8:36:27 PM
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As with any boat regardless of age it all depends on the condition of the boat and how well it has been maintained. I own a 1987 Voyager 28 and dearly love it. Before you buy it you really should have it surveyed, hull, systems and mechanical as well as a compression test on the engine. Plus a thorough sea trial.
Yes, it is possible for it to have that few hours. It is fairly standard procedure to install a new hour meter if/when the boat is repowered. (engine rebuilt or new engine installed)
Honestly, I've never seen a single engine Mariner. All the ones I've seen are twins like my Voyager. But, obviously they offered it as an option or someone spent a heck of a lot of money having it refitted from twins to a single. Not likely.
Anyway, they are great boats and if properly maintained will last virtually forever. Don't let the age of the boat scare you. Wait until you see what the survey shows.
I own a 1987 Voyager 28 and dearly love it. It's a great boat but it, or any boat, is only as good as its maintenance.
Good luck and be sure to let us know how it all turns out.
1987 Carver Voyager 28
Jimbo Song |
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DKinnicutt
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2009 : 8:53:33 PM
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Thank you Jimbo Song! I am going to look at it more carefully tomorrow. Someone locally recommended a good surveyor at a reasonable price, so I will definately have that done if I decide to get down to it. This appears to be a very nice boat with great possiblilities. I have about 30 years of boat handling, but with none this large. While the single may pose a prob docking, I am intimidated by the twin. I have my eyes on a 1985 Riviera but for a lot more money. The interior was done recently by an interior designer and the engines, etc are new. But all of that kind of cuts me out of my pre-retirement project. What I ask if for my Carver to be mechanically sound and I can do the rest.
Anyone else want to weigh in? I am going this by myself - my husband hate boats and it's my passion. A friend owns a local marina that I like and has a great mechanic on site. That is a step in the right direction. I am lovin the Carvers!!!!
Diane |
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woodboat
Canada
131 Posts |
Posted - 06/14/2009 : 9:31:35 PM
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Diane, how about taking some pics of her tomorrow and posting them... may give us all a better feel for what you are looking at... Paul (CarverMitch) will chime in perhaps and advise if the single is less common than the twin for Mariner models... presume it is an I/O, not straight shaft?
Best advise? Take your time. ~ Steve |
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DKinnicutt
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2009 : 09:17:37 AM
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| Thanks, I will get some pics if I am able to get back to the boat today. It is a straight inboard BTW, not an I/O. I am really trying to picture docking that stern-in on a river with currents. I don't need to go anywhere fast and the fuel savings and maintainance appeals to me. Crusader with 135 hours-I am also seeking confirmation on that info. They were originally asking $13995, and they are down to $8995. It also has new camper canvass. I am hoping to get them down a bit. It is currently inside and it was difficult to get a good look at the interior. I am taking a flashlight and my phone to take some pics. There are some on the Boat N RV Supercenter site/Coxsackie NY location. |
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monterey74
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2009 : 10:26:10 AM
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Well... maneuvering a 28' Mariner with a single inboard will take some getting used to. I have seen single engine I/O mariners, but this is the first single _inboard_ I have encountered.
The first thing to keep in mind when docking an inboard is that the rudders don't do anything to steer the boat unless it is moving through the water. That is why with twin prop inboards steering at low speeds is accomplished almost exclusively through the use of the shift levers. (Which by the way makes twin prop boats very easy to dock.)
When initially shifting a single inboard boat into gear the prop's torque and subsequent sideways thrust will have a tendency to push the boat sideways. With a standard right rotation prop the boat's bow will swing a bit left when first shifting into forward. This force will eventually be overcome by the rudder as the boat begins to make headway. When shifting into reverse, the boat's stern will initially swing left. If you know about these thrust forces they can be harnessed to aid in maneuvering the boat at low speeds.
The size of the boat's rudder will determine at what speed it has an impact on steering the boat and how much effect it has when moving in reverse. The surface area of the boat above water (its "sail area") will determine how much the wind becomes a factor in controlling the boat. A Mariner (especially with a full camper top) is basically a sailboat at low speeds. Like prop thrust the wind can hinder your ability to dock the boat, or if properly understood can aid in moving the boat into the desired position.
My advice is to pay particular attention during any sea trials to how the previous owner controls the boat at low speeds. Ask for some tips as well. Then practice!
Brett
1974 2885 Monterey
1978 2896 Mariner (Stripped down to the gunwale and ready to cut) |
Edited by - monterey74 on 06/15/2009 11:00:47 AM |
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DKinnicutt
USA
12 Posts |
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DKinnicutt
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2009 : 4:29:43 PM
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| More info is coming on the boat by the tech that has completed much of its service. But for now, he was able to tell us that the engine is new, which explains the low hours. One gas tank is original and the other was replaced with the engine. It has new batteries, etc. |
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DKinnicutt
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 06/15/2009 : 4:35:26 PM
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| Forgot to mention - the teak seemed to be in very good condition although it needs a thorough sanding/varnish. The section that seemed iffy to me and the service tech was that the deck at the bow over the V-berth seemed soft in places. It gave a little bit when I walked on it. This issue did not seem present elsewhere on the boat. Obviously I would point to that during a survey but I wanted to know if that is "normal". |
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monterey74
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2009 : 01:12:04 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by DKinnicutt
Forgot to mention - the teak seemed to be in very good condition although it needs a thorough sanding/varnish. The section that seemed iffy to me and the service tech was that the deck at the bow over the V-berth seemed soft in places. It gave a little bit when I walked on it. This issue did not seem present elsewhere on the boat. Obviously I would point to that during a survey but I wanted to know if that is "normal".
It sounds like water may have entered the deck and damaged the core. Generally when cored fiberglass seems soft it is an indicator that the fiberglass shell has de-laminated from its internal coring material. On the late '70s Carvers the deck coring is generally end grain balsa with plywood in the areas that need additional strength. On that bow area of the boat the water likely entered around a poorly bedded cleat or possibly around the deck hatch flange.
Repairing water damaged coring is not a difficult task itself, but quite often large portions of a boat's interior need to be removed to gain access to the area that needs repair. This is particularly true when the damaged core is in the boat's hull. Hiring someone to make such a repair can be costly and should be considered when negotiating a purchase price for the boat. If the hull of the boat is free of water damage the soft deck may be a repair that is worth undertaking, especially if the boat is otherwise very clean and in good mechanical condition. However if the core rot is widespread or is found in the hull you should get an opinion from a trusted expert.
1974 2885 Monterey
1978 2896 Mariner (Stripped down to the gunwale and ready to cut) |
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stevenp
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2009 : 08:06:00 AM
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quote:
Originally posted by DKinnicutt
Forgot to mention - the teak seemed to be in very good condition although it needs a thorough sanding/varnish. The section that seemed iffy to me and the service tech was that the deck at the bow over the V-berth seemed soft in places. It gave a little bit when I walked on it. This issue did not seem present elsewhere on the boat. Obviously I would point to that during a survey but I wanted to know if that is "normal".
When I had my boat surveyed, the surveyor had a meter he used to measure the moisture level of the wood coring throughout the boat. With the proper tools your surveyor should be able to easily tell if this area is water damaged.
Silver Beaches, 1986, 28' Mariner |
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DKinnicutt
USA
12 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2009 : 4:50:47 PM
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| Thank you everyone. At this point I may be spooked about handling a single inboard. While I have about 30 years experience boating, it is limited to 22' and below and I/Os. They can be tough enough to dock in close quarters and strong winds/waves on our lake. Granted, sheltered bays on a river (where I would dock the Mariner) may be another story but I may not be prepared for it. I may go to look at a 1985 Santa Cruz with a Merc stern drive unless you can realisitically offer some more encouragement re: the mariner. |
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woodboat
Canada
131 Posts |
Posted - 06/16/2009 : 7:46:01 PM
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| Diane, single inboards are trickier to dock than single I/O's, no question, and Brett's comments are very valid imo. If the rest of the boat meets your wishes, I would say do not let the drivetrain scare you off from owning her. While in most boating situations with docking speed is your enemy, the reverse is mostly true with single inboards. ... The more headway you have, going forward or reverse, the better control you will have... scary proposition for the uninitiated, but not overly difficult to master imo. ~ Steve |
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Jimbo Song
226 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2009 : 09:38:14 AM
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After reading all of the posts there are a few points I'd like to comment on.
First, maneuverability, yes, handling a single inboard does take some getting used to. But once you get the hang of it it's no more difficult than a twin. There are LOTS of Trawlers out there that are all singles and they are handled easily and expertly. If you need to, once you buy the boat, get one of the locals or hire a captain to teach you a maneuver called "Back and Fill". Once you learn and get the hang of that you can dock it in a pickle jar! 
Second, fore deck. It may be that the fore deck, over the forward birth, is not cored but solid fiberglass. My voyager is made this way and, yes, when you step on it it gives a bit. That is very different from a "soft spot". The most vulnerable places, at least on my 1987, are the bridge and the cockpit soles. Plus, the hull or the boat is solid fiberglass as well but the stringers and transome are wood cored. Those should be checked thoroughly. But, as someone else said, the surveyor can and will check it thoroughly with a moisture meter and a phenolic hammer.
Third, from the looks of the photos, depending ou how recent they are, $8000 for that boat looks like a good deal assuming the surveyer and sea trial come back with a good report. Heck, the new engine and new canvas are worth nearly that much.
Keep us posted but it looks to me like you may be onto a very nice old boat that you can "make your own" without spending a lot of money and have aq hell of a lot of fun doing it.
1987 Carver Voyager 28
Jimbo Song |
Edited by - Jimbo Song on 06/17/2009 09:43:12 AM |
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monterey74
USA
51 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2009 : 12:06:01 PM
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quote:
Originally posted by Jimbo Song
...a maneuver called "Back and Fill".
Thanks Robert for the name of the Back and Fill maneuver. These are the types of tricks that a seasoned skipper will know how to use on her boat. If you understand the physics behind the boat being moved through water and air there are many such tricks that are not evident to the casual observer.
Also, the trawler is a good example of a single screw inboard. If this configuration was too hard to maneuver, the trawler would not be such a popular form.
With the proper terminology in hand I was able to find a HOWTO document:
http://www.usna.edu/SailingTeam/training/boats/navy44/backandfill.pdf
(You can skim through the cruft on page 1, the real info starts with #5 in the Sequence of Events.)
1974 2885 Monterey
1978 2896 Mariner (Stripped down to the gunwale and ready to cut) |
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Jimbo Song
226 Posts |
Posted - 06/17/2009 : 4:35:59 PM
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Good on you Monterey! When you practice this maneuver you will discover all sorts of subtlties. For instance, you will learn that bringing the helm hard over and reversing the gear a bit sooner in each direction allows you to actually move the boat sideways.
It's actually a lot of fun to play with. When I first started boating as a lad my Grandfather used to get me out in open water and make me practice this over and over. It has served me well over the years. Now I have twin "V" drives so I drive in tight quarters using the "sticks". But the single can be a lot of fun to play with and you can really impress your friends once you become adept at it..
Good luck.
1987 Carver Voyager 28
Jimbo Song |
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Looking At My First Carver Mariner
